Why A Fractional CCO May Be Right For Your DSO with Drs. Jason Luchtefeld and Kevin Kwiecien

📚 Historically, dental school has taught dental students how to do, but has focused less on how to think. In modern dental practice, this can be a problem as cases become more complex and expectations of treatment kept in-house become higher. Enter Drs. Jason Luchtefeld and Kevin Kwiecien of the CCO Solution, helping DSOs with a fractional chief clinical officer that helps dentists not just learn how to do, but how to think.

Watch/read below or listen in on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.

You can get in touch with Jason and Kevin here: https://theccosolution.com/

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Transcript:

Welcome back to another episode of Kinda Different, an amazing, awesome, super cool dental podcast where we talk about innovation in dentistry, we talk about how we can make dental care more human, and we get to hang out with some of the absolutely best and coolest people in the industry that you may know of, that you may not know of, but you certainly should know about if you don't. And certainly today is no exception to our absolutely amazing guest way that we run this podcast. I'm Dr. Matt Allen, the CEO and co-founder of DifferentKind, and your host for Kinda Different.
And I'm thrilled to have two guys with me today who are doing something really amazing in the space and super needed, and I'm excited for them to share about that. They recently started a company, and I will let them introduce you a little bit more to that. So, Drs.
Kevin Kwiecien and Drs. Jason Luchtefeld, partners and co-founders at the CCO Solution. I'll let them tell you what the CCO Solution is and whatnot, but super, A, like I just really appreciate both of you as humans, and B, I am really excited to learn more about some of the things that we are gonna talk about today.
So, thanks so much for joining. Thanks for taking the time. Tell us a little bit more about yourselves, about the CCO Solution, and then we'll dive in.
Well, Jason, you're the one that's recovering from not feeling good. You want me to start?
Go for it.
Yeah, yeah. And by the way, Matt, we also are fans of yours for being different and for what you do. So, the feeling is exactly mutual.
We love what you're doing and the way you're changing the dental community. So, congrats to you. And I think that's why we're all three sitting here.
We're all three the same that way. We like making a difference. I don't know where that gene comes from in some people, but it doesn't always make days easy, but it does make them different.
And that's what Jason and I have always been about. We've known each other for a lot of years now, come to a lot of different venues, but we came together to form the CCO Solution because we know, I mean, we've always known that, especially in the DSO world, that the dentists, and team members, but the dentists, let's focus on the dentists for a minute, the dentists that for the past 20 years have been going into quote unquote corporate dentistry, it's an avenue that is appropriate for them. And I think that it's awesome that those patients are getting care there.
I think it's the exact appropriate place for those dentists to be. But what I do know to be true is that most of the dentists know that what we all know getting out of dental school, which is there's more to know. But traditionally there's been a rut or I would say there is an understanding or an assumption that there is a rut in corporate dentistry, that the dentists are sort of stuck there.
And what we know to be true is that you can certainly feel more confident, you can certainly be more competent, you can certainly understand the chewing system better, you can certainly communicate with patients better, you can certainly help them see the bigger picture of dentistry. And there's no reason you can't do that in corporate dentistry. And that's why we get out of bed every day is to help those dentists feel more confident, more competent, talk to patients differently, do the dentistry that's appropriate for the patients and not let the excuse of being in corporate dentistry get in the way.
So, I mean, that's it in a nutshell, Jason. You want to add to that? I'm sure I missed about eight things.
Well, the first thing is after Matt's introduction, I felt like I might be in the wrong place. I don't know if amazing, awesome, and super cool has been used to define me and Kevin. Just you.
At least not recently. It's been a few years for those terms to be thrown around, but I really appreciate it. I think, Kevin, you hit on it.
I think the biggest thing is both of us being practitioners, or previously practitioners, helps a lot in our ability to connect with the dentists in the DSOs to not only understand where they're coming from, but help them to grow within that environment, and helping the DSO to scale better quality dentistry. That's something that we've seen quite a bit of just in the last few months with the various interviews we've done, people we've talked to, is these dentists start a DSO, it grows a bit, and then all of a sudden, they don't know how to scale their philosophy, their core values, how they're caring for patients, and just relying on the individual practitioner in an office to try to be able to understand and do that is why we exist, is to be able to try to help scale and do it in a way that is upping the quality of care, the confidence, the competences Kevin talked about.
I love it. I feel like there's such a gap here in terms of, especially for earlier stage DSOs, and the ability for you guys to really provide this level of clinical leadership for them. I'm super excited to talk about it.
I've got some probably hard hitter questions that I'm like, man, I've really been saving these up, haven't asked them to you yet because I wanted to ask them on this podcast here. Let's dive in, let's talk about innovation. One of the first questions that I want to hear from you in terms of this idea of innovation, especially as it relates to clinical dentistry, and especially given the problems that I think both of you just articulated, is this idea that what we learn in dental school is the way we end up practicing.
We practice how we get paid and what we learned in dental school often as dentists. What are the gaps that you really see in this clinical innovation space? Because to me as a clinician as well, it feels like if I really want to get better, I've either got to go spend a boatload of money or whatever.
What gaps do you see in that clinical innovation space that you feel like, hey, we are helping fill these in a really relevant way for the practices that we're working with?
Can I ask a clarifying question?
Of course.
I'm embarrassed to ask you, but what is your definition of innovation?
Yeah, I think just things that haven't been done before, things that have always been done a certain way. So I look at just the dental CE space of like, I go to some regional conference, Rocky Mountain Dental Conference or something, and now all of a sudden, I'm expected to go back and just be a way better clinician. I don't know, that feels hokey to me, that feels unrealistic to me in some ways.
And so having led other clinicians as well, it's like, how do I provide really great structure around that? And I just didn't feel like there was a lot of, I had certain things that I knew about, but just the way that I think innovation in this space has kind of always been approached as like, well, you get done with dental school and then you just kind of like figure it out, and that to me feels like a bad way of going about it. And so you're kind of coming at it with like, hey, they need support and here's what we're bringing them to essentially innovate in this space to say, hey, you can obviously go out and spend a ton of money at certain CE environments or whatever, but ultimately we're gonna teach you how to, what I love about the, or I guess what I think about this concept is like, law school doesn't teach you how to be a lawyer, it teaches you how to think, right?
And I think sometimes dental school teaches us much to, like how to be like just a car mechanic in some ways, instead of like a thinker. And to me, that's where some of the opportunity lies, but curious to your perspective here, because you're the experts in this space and I am definitely not.
Yeah, well, I think when you, there's innovate and integrate, right? That's why I wanted clarity around that. And the gap to innovate and integrate is, it sounds, now I'm going to be boring answering for you, I feel bad, but it's really just be intentional about it.
It is to help, some people don't, you know, facilitating, you're facilitating this call, you used the word earlier, pre, before we went on the air. I think it's to facilitate the process. It's sometimes facilitating is to help people see their blind spots and see the value in changing it, so then they're more motivated.
Some people think they see their blind spots and that's a good starting place, but there's more there. Most dentists coming out of school, as you said, they just, they're, you know, we use the term all the time, tooth mechanics, but they're not thinkers. So how do you start to think about it?
And for me it is, it's taking a step back and saying, yeah, you know how to fix a tooth, you know how to do a restoration, but do you really understand why it broke in the first place? Do you really understand the chewing system? And it's sad, but true, that most dentists out of dental school don't really have a thorough understanding of how the chewing system works and why they're having to repair or fix the tooth.
And therefore, so it starts with an understanding of the chewing system, and then how do you actually now evaluate the chewing system? The word comprehensive I think is overused, but it's a word we all understand, which is now how does your exam be a little more comprehensive, even in a corporate world, even in a private world, when you've got to pay the bills and time is of the essence, how do you be more intentional about that and integrate that into the practice and help the patient see what's possible and be intentional about it? Yeah.
So, yeah, I probably missed that, Jason. Yeah.
Yeah, Jason, tell me how you guys are doing that then, right? So I think that's a really helpful framework there, Kevin, in terms of like, hey, here's the kind of gap that we see. The second part of that question is how are you helping fill that?
Give us some specifics of what that might look like or how that feels to a dentist, or the things that you're talking about. How does that look in practice, I guess?
Yeah. So that partly gets away a little from innovation.
Right.
Because now we're talking about the why. So why are we doing these things? Why are we teaching somebody how to diagnose better or treatment plan better, or buy a piece of equipment, or to get creative or innovative or about something?
So we are facilitating those conversations, as Kevin said. And then we'll go in, and in the areas in which we have some expertise, so that would be diagnosis, treatment planning, treatment execution, team flow around that process. We'll come in and we'll do some hands-on.
Where we're in the office, we're helping, we're monitoring what you do, and then saying, hey, try this, and why are you doing that? And we'll ask questions to get them thinking about why they're doing it a certain way, and then we'll say, how can we do it better? And we want them to be thinking about those answers first before we just plug in our answers.
Because as Kevin said, we don't consider ourselves consultants, where we're coming in and giving you a cookbook. We're coming in to ask questions and then co-create the answers based on our experience and knowledge and what environment you're in, who you're working with, what are the parameters that exist that are helping to dictate some of the path forward?
Well, maybe our definition of innovation is different here, but I would still consider that really innovative from the perspective of that's not happening in a lot of places. That's like Seneca level knowledge of like back to the early Greeks and we've forgotten about it, and so we need to re-remember, we need to re-understand how to ask ourselves questions in the Aristotelian method or whatever. So I think from that perspective, it's not brand new maybe, but it is certainly not happening, I would say, consistently, at least in the educational world and probably early career hood for many dentists and then in many of these DSO spaces.
And so I certainly think what you're doing is very innovative.
Yeah.
Well, and I think that's the- in private practice, again, I think there's a- there still is an overlap between, because there are plenty of private practices within the DSO world, as you know, that feel, and their goal is to feel very private praxied, but yet they still have this, the corporate entity that is overseeing all that.
But in a very traditional private practice, if like you said earlier, Matt, if you wanted to spend a bucket load of money and time, which I am still a fan of in certain situations, you would go to Panky, Spear, Coys, or Dawson. I taught at Spear for years, Treatment Planning and Occlusion, airway and stuff like that, and still teach at Panky, and I'm still a fan of those. However, even the people that go there still struggle to integrate it when they go back to their practice.
So I think our innovation, if we're going to use the word that way, is we bring it to you. The other issue is when people go to Panky, Spear, Coist, Doss, and etc. is the team isn't there.
We all know how that feels. You go back and you've got all this energy and the team doesn't understand it, whereas the gift of this is, we're doing it with the team and the dentist. So A, you're not having to take too much time out of work, you're not having to fly you or your team there, and we're doing it around them in their situation, specific to their situation as opposed to a cookie cutter, which in my opinion pretty much never works, or if it does, you got lucky.
Yeah. No, totally. That makes a ton of sense.
I mean, I think that that's, it's huge, right? Like what you're saying, it sounds like, Kevin, is you go to those places and it's like a camp experience in some ways, right? Where you're like, this is awesome, I'm super thrilled.
And then you go back and you're like, how do I actually do any of that? You know, like I was super pumped, but now I don't actually have the support. So whether that's the team, yourself, et cetera.
So you guys-
And it's frustrating and depressing when that happens for dentists too. They've got, I mean, it's, it almost sometimes will have the opposite effect. They'll go to camp and be all excited and come back and realize they're struggling to integrate it, the team's not on board.
And then they go from the excitement of camp to almost like a, a depression or a, yeah, misery or a frustration, all of that together.
I mean, I think that just wastes all that money. Yeah.
Yeah. Buyers remorse.
Yeah.
Throw that out there as well. Right. Yeah.
Yeah. Awesome. Well, I think that's a really great platform for just kind of like description and a helpful way for us to formulate, it's like how we become better clinicians and how we think about some of these things, which I love.
Next question I have for you, I think is it relates to innovation, is really maybe not an innovation question as much as it is like an understanding question of some of what we see in the dental industry right now that I think relates to clinical skill and some of this, but we'll frame it under innovation because that's where we are right now. But I think the question that I have for you here, and maybe it's more of a statement that you can choose to agree with or disagree with, but I think gets at some of what we were just talking about right now, is that to me, it feels like far too often, let's say it's a non-clinician who's starting a DSO or something like that, or it's somehow getting put together without that person at the core, and so there's a lack of clinical leadership, right? It feels like a lot of that ends up hiding behind this term autonomy, right?
We provide a ton of autonomy, which just to me means we don't really provide oversight or framework or structure, and I think people get scared by that term in terms of here's our philosophy, here's our thesis, here's, you know, but to me, it just helps everyone row in the right direction when I think about that. And so, you know, share with us your perspective, I guess, is what I'm really looking for here in terms of, you know, how is, you know, is A providing that framework in that thesis and that kind of like, we're all rowing in the same direction innovative, because to me, it feels like it is because what I see is a lot of just like, yeah, we give them this total clinical autonomy, meaning like, we don't really support you when it comes to, you know, helping you be a better clinician.
Yeah. Jason, you want to go? Yeah, you fire away.
Yeah. The first thing I would say, there is a legal component. So the non-dentist DSO owner can't tell the dentist how to do dentistry.
So I think that a DSO would really benefit from having a clinical advisory board if it's not owned and run by a dentist or dental team. So that's number one is like a background context of why it would be easy for a DSO to relinquish that control and say you have autonomy because they have to. With that said, I agree with you that any DSO should develop some sort of a treatment philosophy.
This is how we're going to care for patients. That should then be carried out by that Chief Clinical Officer or Chief Dental Officer, depending upon your preference. That's where we come in is in those emerging smaller DSOs that don't have the resources to have that person that carries that through the offices or collects the data from the dentist to say, where are we and where do we want to go?
That's what we help with. To give you a plug, Matt, I think some of what you're doing with the ability of DifferentKind to bring in the team satisfaction piece of things really provides a lot of value to a DSO to say, how are we doing? What are we doing?
Now let's develop some things to get better.
I'll add to that when you say rowing in the same direction, I think those are the words you used, Matt. The other day, I guess it was earlier this week, maybe last week, we are sort of vetting a potential client, a small-ish DSO. And literally as we're talking to them on the call last week, because they're one that I think would be fun to work with, but it organically came up that, and I won't name it, but they said, oh, it's almost like we wanna have the blank, blank way.
This is the blank, blank way. That's what we want everybody in this DSO to know what is the blank, blank way. And the way that you should have seen the light come on.
Oh my God, that's it. We need to come up with the blank, blank way so that all of the practices, because they're not all under the DSO name, so they look just like small individual practices, like that everybody needs to know, this is the blank, blank way. And I was like, yeah, that's what it is.
At least we're rowing in the same direction, but then there better be somebody that helps them learn and integrate the blank, blank way.
Totally. You need the coxswain shotting at the front of the boat, right? I don't know if you guys are small enough to be the coxswain, but certainly you could probably be loud enough, right?
Probably. I don't know. I watched the boys in the boat and I don't know about that.
That's a tough job.
That is a tough job. Usually, it's some five-foot girl who's just way tougher than all those old dudes.
Totally.
Which I think is a good metaphor here in some ways.
It is.
Yeah, I like that one.
Actually, I read that book first before I saw the movie, so I would recommend that to everybody. The book is way better than the movie, Boys in the Boat, but side note.
There you go. I love it. Well, I do think that's a really helpful way that you just presented it there, Kevin, in terms of the blank, blank way.
I think sometimes people get scared by that, but ultimately, if you don't have that philosophy, you don't have that mission, vision, values that ultimately enable the way it feels for patients when they come in to receive care. You're presenting some vision of how the world should be and how the care should be and all of that stuff, and just not thinking about it is a way, and it's generally going to be a really crappy and incohesive and really confusing way for patients, and so you got to create that blank, blank way to-
Yeah. You're still going to have a system, even if it's not an intentional system or a way, right?
It's still there.
It's still there.
Seth Godin has a quote, people like us do things like this. Something to that. I might have butchered it a little bit, but it's something like that.
That's good. I love it. I'm looking at the clock and I'm like, man, we're already well deep into this conversation.
We're going to keep going. Hopefully, people who are joining for this episode are just ready for it, because I'm like, man, do you guys ever listen to what's the podcast with Jason Bateman and Will Arnett or whatever? Yeah.
They're funny.
Limitless.
Limitless. Yeah. Something like that.
Yeah. But yeah, I'm like, man, these are like three hours. I think they just like hanging out together.
That's how I feel right now. I just want to get your perspective on this. I just want to hear.
Okay. Let's move on to Connection. You guys are amazing humans, like I mentioned.
And I would just love to learn more about the folks that we're getting a chance to chat with because often we're talking about dentistry and it's a reflection of yourself, but it's maybe not all of yourself, right? So one of the things that I always like to learn from other people is, who's inspiring to you, right? Like you all are both inspiring to me in various ways.
Who's inspiring to you? Who are the people that you're looking at being like, wow, that person is really cool because X, Y, and Z, give me those people, or maybe it's a book, or maybe it's something that you're looking at being like, man, this is really floating my boat and helping me to look forward.
You first, Jason. Well, I find this to be a really difficult question. I don't feel like I can answer myself.
That's a little too egotistical. Just kidding. So I just finished reading a book called High Output Management by the legend Andy Grove.
So a long time Intel CEO. And it's a book about managing a production line basically, in his case for microprocessors and things. But he goes way out into other areas of people management, of self-analysis and self-awareness to make sure you're doing things that you want to do and you're aware of your own skills and abilities.
And so the book covers a lot more. And he just is a super interesting guy, I think from Hungary originally, and came over and made a huge success of himself, moving up the ladder at Intel. And so the book has interesting stories, and he just seems like a really fascinating and successful human.
Yeah.
Love it.
Good recommendation. People are gonna leave with like a big list from this whole episode. We'll put it in the show notes.
We'll take all the recs and just put it in the show notes.
Yeah. You know, it's interesting. My inspirations, dental and non-dental.
Dental ones, I'm that guy who has hung around with really smart. I've just had been lucky to hang around with really smart people. They started way back in the day in the early, late 1990s, at Panky with some of the faculty that are just normal people, that are just really good people.
So I could name a bunch of them who have become great friends. It's interesting on the business side though, I like to think I'm different, but I'm pretty boring some days. I became way back in the day early.
I felt like I was one of the early passionate guys around Simon Sinek. I'm sorry. I know he's everywhere.
But there's just something about the way he communicates his humility, that he really just wants to help people. It's okay if he makes money and he's successful doing it. I'm okay with that too.
But his humility and genuine care seems to come through. There's a lot of people like that. Anybody who seems just genuine and caring, but he's one of the people that I think is a once in a generation, like a global change agent, that just the way he communicates, the way it makes sense, he and a guy by the name, actually, we had him, Jason, at AES last year opening the keynotes was Otto Scharmer, who wrote Theory U, who, I mean, that guy is changing the world right now.
And he's famous, he makes tons of money. But man, is he just, he just feels right to me. And same with Peter Senge.
You can say Senge, Senge, Senge, people say it different ways, but that wrote the Fifth Disciplines and Presencing, and he and Otto Scharmer work together at MIT. So I've been, those are two people that just inspire the crap out of me and make me think very differently and have since the late 90s, probably.
I love it. Yeah, this is gonna be like just chock full of like great books for people to go read and great things for people to think about moving forward, which is the point of all this stuff, right? Like is helping communicate some of what's in amazing people's head to the world.
So I appreciate you sharing.
What's yours, Matt? Who's yours?
Who's mine right now?
Current, yeah.
That's a good question. I don't, you know, no one asks me the questions, right? Like that's not, you know, I'm happy to answer.
I tell people all the time this related to motivational interviewing, right? Like in terms of, you know, that's kind of my expertise in the dental world. And I would have patients all the time that I had known for years that like literally would know nothing about me.
And I think sometimes we have to have like this, like give and take to have a reciprocal relationship. You actually really don't, especially like in this health care provider role. Like if I'm empathetic and I'm listening and I'm asking great questions of you and whatever, you're like, I mean, I had a person tell me one time like this feels like therapy.
Like, can I come here every week? And the job of the therapist is not to like, you know, tell about their experience, right? It's to listen, it's to like, you know, help guide and do those things, right?
So in that way, I'm like, oh man, like no one asked me the question. I'm not used to that. No, I think, you know, something that's been really inspiring to me, I would say this year, just in general, is this kind of idea of community discipline together.
So discipline sounds like a bad word, you know, but like community practices that shape us or form us. So maybe it's community formation is like a more positive way to shape that. So like some things that we've been working on as a community this past year, it's all like some, you know, some thought leadership on this, but like, you know, practicing Sabbath together or, you know, my wife and I fast like weekly, like where it's just like, hey, but we do it like a whole bunch of people.
It's not like, you know, back in the closet or whatever, just by herself. And so it feels like, oh, this takes it from like this individual practice that I have to this like shared communal practice where we all have some understanding even if we're not talking about it. And so that's been really formative, I would say, for me in the past year.
So for what that's worth.
That's deep community.
There you go.
Hey, can I push into an area you just mentioned?
Sure.
So you talked about motivational interviewing and using that has led to patients feeling great about being there, but then realizing that they don't know anything about you. And I think that there's value in that. And I think that being aware of that is even more valuable because I know there are some practitioners that want the opposite.
They want to be able to have a reciprocal sharing. And so being able to do that in a practice in a safe way has a lot of value. And I think that's something else that it's a topic I like talking about because I always disliked being friends with patients.
And I wanted my practice life and I wanted my personal life. And I didn't want the worlds to merge. And so having tools and techniques to do what you want to do is really valuable.
And so for you, for example, knowing motivational interviewing and how to best apply that is a great tool to allow you to further conversation, make people feel good without yourself having to be vulnerable, exposed, etc.
It's great. That's your spot on there. And I think it's one of those things that I'm never hesitant to share.
If they are asking questions, like you just did. Right. But for the majority of people, they don't need it.
And to me, that's great. I'm like, cool, I can kind of forget about myself. Right.
It's kind of nice to show up in those situations and be like, I'm just here for you. And that makes me able to really to be present fully.
That really is the is the foundation of you guys probably both know that, you know, Bob Barkley coined the term co-discovery. And there's so many different definitions of it. But honestly, it's I'm learning about you as you are learning about you.
It's it's humble inquiry. Some people call it just genuine curiosity, helping the person feel seen and heard. But that is co-discovery.
And that's when they they're like, dang, I don't know why I like you. I just like you. But that's because that's because I feel seen and heard and it was genuine.
It was genuine.
100 percent. I love that. I mean, we've talked a lot on this show with various guests about the idea of co-diagnosis, co-discovery, whatever, right?
Like, and it doesn't it doesn't take me showing up as like, it takes me showing up, right? But it doesn't take me disclosing a whole bunch of stuff. It doesn't require a lot of self-disclosure for me to like, definitely not that process happen for people.
So, yeah, speaking of like, self-discovery and we've talked to you some about like, we've talked a lot today already about kind of understanding yourself and those kinds of intentionality and some of those things, right? I was, this is a little bit sillier, but I think it's actually like indicative of like some of our journeys. How would your middle school, your best friend from middle school describe you?
Like, if you look back to yourself like back then, how would your best friend from middle school be like, this is Kevin, this is Jason, like what would they have said about you at that time, and how might that be different from, or maybe the same to how you are now?
Energetic and hilarious. Yeah, I had a couple of middle school friends in my neighborhood that I got to spend a lot of hours with running around, and we were constantly on the go in the neighborhood, and especially at that age, constantly just running, biking, always doing something, and that carried forward. So a lot of that has carried forward even to now, but that would have been a hallmark back then, and then we always used to play pranks on each other.
So I think it would be energetic and hilarious.
I think it's pretty authentic to who you are. You've already been telling jokes on the show today, and whatever, so I feel that, I feel that. Love it, great description, energetic and hilarious.
What about you, Kevin?
I'm trying to think of who that person is, but I think in general where my brain went is, well, they would describe me as very active, always on the go, playing any sport I can, and they would say he thinks he's better than he is at all of those sports. And the reason that I go back to that is because you said middle school. In middle school, I wasn't good at basketball, but I played everything and I tried out for everything and all the way through high school as well.
But for some reason, I made the A team in basketball. We had an A and B team, right, in basketball. I didn't, I just tried out, but I think it's because I was fast and I worked hard in practice, but there were plenty of players on the B team that were a heck of a lot better than I was.
And I sucked when it came game time on the A team. And I, and to this day, I think to myself, I think I would be a much more confident person if I actually would have been on the B team, because I had a lot of anxiety and imposter complex being on the A team. I'm almost mad at the coach.
His name is Greg Baxter. He was my algebra teacher. And I'm like, dude, why are you torturing me by putting me on the A team?
Everybody's wondering why the hell Kevin made the A team. And then I sucked. So, that's...
But there's a lesson there in that like, you train hard, you train, especially in middle school, right? Like my son is nine right now, he's on soccer. And it's like, all they want to do is get out there and just like goof off and practice, right?
You train hard, you're gonna stand out. So if you, you know, but that's the same thing for dentistry, the same thing for life, right? Like practice like you mean it, right?
So...
Dig deep, yeah. Dig deep, yeah.
Love it, love it.
I appreciate that. That's good. See, when people see your conferences now, they're gonna be like, you know, telling jokes to you, Jason, or they're gonna be like, hey, Kevin, let's go play some basketball.
I want you on our three-on-three team at Dykema next year, or whatever it is, you know.
No, they don't want me on it.
Oh, maybe they don't want you on Dykema. Maybe they want you on the B team, the B team.
Yeah, they do. Yeah, they do.
Okay.
All right.
Well, let's move on to making dental care more human. Last subject here, last kind of context. I got one question since we're already going super long here, which is great.
I love it. But I think this will be kind of an all-encompassing question. I think we talked in the innovation section about maybe some of the pitfalls or some of the like problems that maybe we're seeing that you all are helping solve in this space.
But I think this is more of the vision question of that. Where do you really hope to take clinical dentistry, from where it's at right now to where that spot is? Describe to us, paint that picture to us, give us that vision of like, hey, when we're done with our careers and whatever, we hope that it looks, feels like this.
And again, kind of paint us that picture, if you will, to describe that vision.
Holy cow, Matt.
You could tell, so you asked like, what's inspiring to me? I'm like, I'm the philosopher. I'm like the, let's read the deep, let's think the deep.
And I think that's why we get along too, right? So I'm not here to give you softballs, right? I'm here to ask you good, important questions that help everyone.
So hopefully, at least, that's everyone.
What's your legacy, Jason? What do you want to be different?
So I have two answers. One is for the individual, and this could be dentist or just person. I would like people, if it's about what I'm doing, it's that I'm unleashing a person's ability to think, reason, and know themselves more deeply and thoroughly.
And that, I think, leads to then a lot of potential for them in whatever area they choose. So that's kind of a big global, but on an individual scale. And then the other would be my vision for what impact I or we can have for DSOs.
And that is that dentists realize that they do have some control, and they should exert that, and that DSO leadership should be harnessing that and can in a positive way. The end.
Love it.
That was good, Jason.
It was good.
Yeah. Mine has been the same for a long time, and I think maybe that's a good thing. It hasn't changed is I want, I mean, globally, I want every person in the dental world, team members, dentists, like that work, not put patients aside for a minute, people that work in dentistry, to because it's stressful.
It's hard, I think. I want everybody that works in that field to feel like they're part of something special, to feel like they have a sense of community, and to walk out at the end of every day, like on a scale of 1 to 10, being an 8, 9, or a 10, and just being the best version of themselves, because it's stressful. But I think that's what it takes.
Specifically for the dentists, I just, and maybe it comes from where I came from, but I don't want you to be over competent or over confident. Well, I guess you can't be over competent. I don't want you to be over confident, but I want you to be really competent and feel appropriately confident and not worried, not anxious, and connect with patients and teams.
That goes back to co-discovery. So I mean, that's really ethereal right there, but I think it's, the legacy I want to leave is that everybody just felt better in the end. The people that work in dentistry.
Yeah, totally. I love it, man. Those are beautiful big visions, right?
And I think that it's fun to talk about those. And I think you all are are paving the way for that, for the clinicians that you're working with in many ways around this. And certainly, I think all, when we look at the athletics world, right?
Like all of the best athletes have the best coaches and in the same way, right? Like we all need people standing alongside of us, working with us to help us become the best version of ourselves. And I appreciate the work that y'all are doing with the clinicians that you work with in the many settings that you're doing that.
So thank you for sharing all of this. Thank you for diving into a fun conversation, sharing resources, sharing ideas. I love it.
If people want to learn more about you all and CCO Solution, where do they go? Give us some guidelines. Again, we'll put them in the show notes, but tell us where to go.
Well, it's pretty hard to remember. It's the ccosolution.com and you can go to LinkedIn also and look at the CCO Solution. Then it's even crazier if you were to go to LinkedIn and look up Jason Luchtefeld or Kevin Kwiecien.
We just don't make it too hard to find us. Did I miss one, Jason? We don't tweet or X whatever you want to call it these days.
I'm sorry.
We're out of the house. You're not TikToking. You're not.
We don't TikTok. No. That might let some people down.
Yeah. That's about it. But it's not too hard.
It's the CCO Solution or our names, and you're going to find us. What did I miss, Jason?
No, that's it. Simple. direct.
Yes. 100 percent. Cool.
Well, thank you both so much for taking the time today. I 100 percent am confident that we could have a two-hour episode where we dive into a whole, but maybe we will in the future. It could be crazy.
Who knows? I would love to have you back on at some point. But thank you so much for taking the time today, sharing your expertise, your vision, your humanity with us.
It's really appreciated. I know that I'm better for it, and I know our listeners are better for it. Thanks so much.
Thanks for having us, and thanks for doing what you do, because it's just as impactful. We wouldn't be sitting here if we didn't have complete faith in you.
Thanks, man. Thanks, man.

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